Katas is the japanese way to say "form" as "poomses" are the Korean way to say forms I believe.

yeah, that makes sense because tae-kwon-do is a korean martial art

I dont know why they NEED belts. I guess its a way to SHOW your skill level, in a sense. To me, Belts are just something you hold your pants up with. I think they should do away with the belt systems, as a whole...

without belts, how are you going to tell if a person is a black belt or white belt? or anything in between?!

Who cares? Skill comes from within....not from a belt. You wanna know how skilled a fighter is? Challenge them to a fight.

so what you mean is its ok for a black belt to engage in full contact sparing to a white belt. How is he suppose to know if he/she is only white belt?!?!
they have belts for a reason.
skill comes from within, yes and no.
some peoples neural structure is use to performing all sorts of weird moves its not use to (i.e. kicks stances etc)(and when i say neural structure i mean that if your right handed, try righting with your left hand. the only reason you can't is because the neurons arn't use to sending those messages which contract your muscles)
yes, some people a born in a way where they can pick things up really easily, they have skill within.
but some people are very un-coridnated, and it takes time for them to reach certain skill levels.
thats why they have belts to determine approx. what skill level you are. There is no way i will go into full contact sparing if i new my opponent was a white sash, no way! But without belts, how am i going to tell otherwise!?

Like i said before...I'm not talking about sparring with somebody who has a colored belt. I'm talking about skill....if you're walking down the street and some guy comes at you, are you going to stop him, and say "HEY! I'M A BLACK BELT!"? Didnt think so....The outcome of a fight is dictated by the individual who wants the victory more...Not by the apparatus holding up his pants. My best friend has to LEGALLY warn a potential oppenent before a fight...BY LAW, he is required to inform someone what he is capable of...Because he is highly trained in The Art of Fighting, in General. No Belt was ever awarded to him, nor is he of any specific rank. And to tell you the truth, I would put my money on him, over ANYBODY on this site.

I'll take him on in a friendly fight.
3rd degree Shaolin Kung-Fu, Black Sash in Drunken Fist, Weapons master and just started Grappling. (sorry to boast) But i do have a chance against almost anybody. So yeah, i'll take him on!
Well... your not going to wear your belt in the street, its for when your in training, to tell others what skill you are. And you don't need to wear a belt around the streets, not unless you want to anyway.
Why are you so against wearing belts anyway?
and yeah, here i don't think you have to tell them before you engage in combat, its not illegal not to, but you can be charged more if you do seriously hurt someone. But if you do tell them then they can't do a thing.
If someone runs at me going to attack me, i defelct them get into a fancy stance to show thyem i know my stuff, and then tell them. and if he comes at me, with heaps of anger, then i hurt him until he goes away.
Belts/sashs' (what ever else there is) are for a reason.

name the time and place, and give at least 2 weeks for training and you've got yourself a deal! you didnt understand what I meant...By LAW(per federal government orders) He MUST inform somebody of what he is capable of doing. Its not a legality thing. He was trained TO kill. he was trained TO dismember. BY THE GOVENMENT and other sources. I am a martial artist myself. I have had extensive training and am quite confident in my skills. However, I would still bet my life savings on him in ANY situation. I guess it must be seen, to be understood. But like I said, A frienldy fight has been accepted. You name the Time, The place, and we'll be there! Its good to know there are still fighters out there who still respect the art aspect of Martial Arts.

i was a brown sash 3rd degree, (blue belt) in kung fu, and i was beating green sashes (black belts), like nothing. belts and ranks are useless.

It is a way of showing the whereabouts of someones skill level. If you are beating poeple that are at a higher belt than you, why arn't you at that belt?

I dont believe in the belt system for this reason also...You asked him why he isnt at that rank, if he's beaten people of that higher rank? Well, In order to move up in rank, your Sifu, Sensei, or whatever you call them has to test you and see that you are ready to move up. Just because you can beat your teacher, doesnt mean he's going to automatically deem you worthy of "master" status. Its called a pecking order, my friend. A sad twisted reality of the Martial Arts World.

I know all too well how the grading system works, i have been through quite a lot.
i was just making a point. He says they shouldn't have belts, because he beat a person who is higher ranked than him. All i was saying is that if you better than them, why arn't you at the same rank or higher?!?!
Tehy have belts for a reason, not just to look pretty.
To determine what skill level your at.

If i go to another club (which i often do to share, and gain knowledge) and i spar with people. I am going to go a lot easier if someone has a green belt to a black belt (for karate people)
If they didn't i could accidently injure a less skilled opponent because they weren't at my skill level.

True, a belt won't help you on the street. Not unless you show off how pretty it is. Because the system of belts in modern clubs/kwoons/dojos etc is a way of determining skill level. If you don't believe in this system, then your ignoring a part of your own style. and will never be able to accept certain things in life.
Belts in Training no belts in street. Simple
Just because your friend has to warn people, don't mean that his belt in training is pointless.

Now finally, Tarzan
There is not a thing on this site that you have said that hasn't had a meaning to it. Every comment has been mature and direct to the point.
Do you think the system of belts in todays training venues are pointless or not?

Hmmm, good question. There are good points in using belts and there are bad points also. Achieving a belt is a goal for most people and so it works motivational. It also gives the teacher and the student a way to measure progress and skill (skill as knowledge). It is also very useful when you visit another school with the same system or even with another system. You can see in an instant who are supposed to be the beginners and who are the experts.

But on the other hand is doesn't tell you if you are a good fighter. Belts mean nothing in competition.

One thing is very important and that is that you cannot compare belts from one system with another. In taekwondo you can achieve a black belt in about three years. Is does not mean that you know the complete system. In Ninjutsu a black belt means that you know all basics. But there are also systems where you do not get a black belt before you have mastered the complete system.

Then i have another point about competition. In competition you have rules and protection (like gloves etc). In a real fight you do not have rules and protection. A real fight is only a few seconds and you might have multiple opponents. And remember that a good streetfighter has probably no belt at all!

In our school we have a very simple and basic belt system with only 6 different belts. You have to double your knowledge and skill to achieve the next one. When you have the black belt you know the complete Wing Chun system. (ok, we have another belt but that belt you only wear when you are teaching).

Good answer. I've never thought of skill as in knowledge. Its a very good way to look at it. Cheers mate.

my first grading in kung fu i advanced 3 levels. i was the first person to ever do that in my style of kung fu. my sifu wanted me to take over the school when he "retired" by i refused, because i don't believe in forms, or belts. i don't believe that you should stand in a straight line and grunt acknowledgements in unison, i don't think you should bow to your sifu, because everyone is equal. i was learning 3 forms in one class, while the others took 2 weeks to learn a form. but they had high ranks then me? i think thats ridiculous. when i first started kung fu i was 15 and i went into a tournament, and i fought the "3 time undefeated champion" i beat him in 3 seconds. no lie. i kicked him in the stomach and he layed on the ground for 30 minutes saying i broke his spine. lol. and ever since that day i thought belts were useless, because i knew that i was way better than my rank. i was also bored of learning forms, which i personally think are useless, except for a good workout. anyways, thats why i went into mixed martial arts. no belts, no uniforms, no rituals. you just go and learn functional self-defense. we aren't a bunch of brutes. everyone is polite. everyone has a good nature. i think we have a gym in australia i think i read somewhere that some of you guys live there. i'm in Straight Blast Gym International.

If belts are so pointless, why do you think that 95% of all clubs in the world have belts?
In our venue we are all equal, we only bow to our sifu/sijo so that they can acknowledge we have left the room, we bow to come back in so they know we are acounted for.
I do see your point of view about low graded people beating higher graded people. But as Tarzan said, belts are knowledge. A belt is to resemble how much you know, not whether you can apply it or not. Thats why you have some fantastic black belts, and not so fantastic.
In Five Animal Kung-Fu, Black belt is just the begining of your animal training.

95% of clubs have belts because its "tradition". can you not have knowledge without belts? my gym doesn' have belts, but everyone knows who has knowledge and who doesn't.

what you said didn't really make sense about bowing to your sifu. if he sees you bowing, won't he see you walking in? i went to my friends tae kwan do gym and i had to bow twice before i could go in. once to the master, and once for the korean flag. but his master didn't even see me bow. so it was kind of pointless.

That was a tae kwon do club, i don't bow to any flag. Is just our clubs customs to bow to acknowledge your leavnig or entering.

hey five_animals

ask your instructor if he thinks he could beat bruce lee in a fight (both in their prime), and let me know what he says.

yeah i'll ask him. Do you mean Sifu, or my Sijo?
i can say now it'll be a close fight (if sijo)
he was taught to be a brawler, win at all costs. He has since changed his ways now, realising its not the best form of Martial arts. In his early 20's he won the European Championship, he is trained in over 15 different styles and 53 weapons (good for control). I do reckon he'd have a good chance in winning. Because he can take punches as if they were nothing (and i know, coz i tried :P)
He has taught me all my martial art skills, and i'd face Bruce (i don't think i'll win, but i reckon i'd do some damage) I'll give any challanger a go. Part of the dragon, If i win then i win, if i lose then i learn how to win next time we fight. so i win no matter what. :D thats why i'd face bruce. If i lost (almost garanteed) i'll gain more knowledge about myself, and how to beat him.

My sifu/sigung actualy sparred with Bruce Lee back in the days in Hong Kong. And his Kung Fu brother would have won from Bruce.

My sifu told me a few years ago that even i would have won from Bruce. He was not very impressed by Bruce Lee (in his Hong Kong years).

We cannot ask His Kung Fu brother anymore, he has left us in 1997.

I was reading an article about Bruce Lee (i have never really taken an interest in him until now) Really, he didn't do anything to prove he's a great martial artist, he didn't win anything but a cha-cha comp. So i'd understand if someone said he was not that impressed

that doesn't matter. i read an article saying he didn't waste his time with that nonesense. so it goes both ways.

the thing is. he tought all of the champions, so in that respect, he had to be good.

i was watching a documentary on him a couple days ago he said that in in the way of the dragon his level of skill was matched by the legendary chuck norris, now, he must of been good if he could keep up with a karate champion but how is he the best if his skill was matched.

But never did one too... But he was an extreme artist in a strange time. Het is the legend!

I reckon one of the reasons Bruce didn't enter in competitions is becuse he wouldn't be able to face the fact if he lost. When he was young he started Whu Shu because he was beaten up, and lost a fight. so maybe thats one of the reasons he didn't enter, just taught people who did enter.
what do you all think?

first of all, he started wing chun when he was teenager, and i really don't think thats why he didn't enter competitions. back then, they weren't all out full contact freestyle fighting tournaments, they weren't even contact. the tournaments back then were freaking stupid, and thats what bruce lee said in one of his documentaries. i think rather then competing, he instead dedicated himself to training. i don't think he had the time or interest to fight in a tournament.

about losing, watch the special features on enter the dragon where he talks about losing. acually i'll try to sum it up... basically he said, people are always too concerned about winning, but no one can except defeat. so you have to free your ambitious mind, and learn the art of dying. so, I think that if bruce lost, he would study and analyze why he lost, and become a better fighter from it. you know, everyone has their off days, you can't always win. just the other day, i was way off my game in brazilian jiu-jitsu, i couldn't do anything right, but the next day i came in i did everything correct. so i dunno, that really had nothing to do with anything, but i think bruce just didn't care for non-contact tournaments.

also, i just remembered, bruce's tactics were a lot of foul play, groin, eyes etc, and thats another reason he didn't compete. he thought that if their were rules, it was kind of pointless.

It was just a thought i had.
When you said analyse he lost, to become a better fighter, thats the main principle in the dragon. I choose the way of the tiger and thats win at all costs, but having been taught in the dragon i'm not afraid to loose and can accept it, but i prefer to scare the shit outta my foe so i can do what ever i want with him. lol!
o and about the full contact paring, they prob had more back then than they do nowdays.

he didn't agree with the rules of tournaments. and there is a lot more full contact fighting nowadays, a lot of MMA tournaments are full contact. back then (where bruce lived anyways) they were just introducing contact in tournaments, thats why bruce didn't bother. plus, i watched tons of footage of tournaments back then, and i'm pretty sure, i'd kill those guys in a fight, and bruce would kick my head in, so i dunno, i think he thought it was a waste of time, and he had better things to do anyways. just look at his body, its freakin unbelievable. with a body so well trained and defined as his, your not going to loose many fights, on top of his extraordinary speed and forearm power. he has the biggest forearms in relation to body size that i've ever seen. his punching power by the time he was 33 must have been devastating.

you said in tiger, you like to scare your foe. what if your foe doesn't get scared and is very agressive. I was taught that the tiger isn't too concerned with defense, so i was told to "overwhelm" the tiger, and strike first before he hits. but in a tournament, i fought someone who used tiger, and they were pretty reckless, which resulted in me kicking them in the head, and they couldn't continue. like i said before, i'm not big on shaolin kung fu anymore.

just for the record, there were heaps of full contact fights back in those days, and i believe more than there is now days.
you are right, tiger doesn't worry about defence. Scaring my opponent is just for fun, if i know they willbe scared i'll do it to throw them off their game, if they are a tiger as well, i needen't bother. "when two tigers fight, once dies and the other is seriously injured" For the reckord, if anyone tris to kick me in the head they usually find themselves on the ground with a tiger claw to the thraot. head kicking is too easy to dodge, because it takes a while before you get that high (well... longer than other kicks) and i have more reaction time.
But generally if i come up against another tiger, i'll perform the crane. crane surpasses tiger in a fight. I enter as the five animals, not one animal, so if i need to i can change. :D
Shaolin Kung-Fu is my life right now, i love it more than anything else! even if something doesn't work for me, i try and try again until i get it right. so far the only thing that hasn't worked for me is monkey style. i'm 6'4", 94kg. i can't bounce around everywhere. lol
Even though it don't look like it (if youy couyld see me) my stomach and all are extreamly hard, its just got a layer of fat :P i see it as an advantage, punching impact is slowed down and the hits a hard wall of muscle.

why don't they invent like hippo style, and you can chew on your opponent. roar :P

you say you would fight bruce lee, yet you say you have a layer of fat above the muscle. which, means that your not in as great of shape as him, and i bet hes a lot stronger, and has more endurance then you, so i'm pretty sure he'd knock you out in 5 seconds. lol

when grading for red belt and higher, in GKR we have to fight our sensei, and depending on your rank within ie student instructor senior instuctor etc you have to fight even tougher people. for instance as an instructor for red belt i have to fight my sensei who is regional manager, but my sensei for his black must fight the guy who manages south east, and the last guy he graded got his ribs broken.

dizzy, what happens if you fail to defeat your sensei, do you not pass the grading? or does it depend on how well you fight, demonstrate technique etc?

i have only ever graded once, when i was a white belt i graded and achieved a yellow. that was 4 years ago and i haven't graded since. i'd rather concentrate on learning the martial art and improving my technique than spending time trying to get a nice coloured belt. Just my personal feelings, i can see why people would want a belt and i understand why we have them, i'd jus prefer to concentrate on learning the art rather than what rank i am

You can have the skill and knowledge of a half eaten, rotten, sewer rat burger with all the trimmings and a side order of infested pidgeon mayo and still get your black belt, so chill out!

Every now and then, an ox kills a tiger