"dont listen to the ppl who says its crap."
Cause people can't have their own opinion about a martial art, right?

I can't speak from personal experience, but a friend of mine took tae kwon do for 3 years, and afterwards, took something like Goujin-Ryu karate and said it was much better.

On a side note, I myself have taken Shotokan karate and practice Jeet Kune Do. If you already have a foundation of martial arts, i'd suggest JKD if you can find somewhere that'll teach it.

Tae kwon do is definatly not crap! its a perfectly good martial art. As far as i know their kicks are un-beaten!
And just because your friend found Goujin-Ryu Karate better doe not mean that Its a better style, he may just be suited to that style. I have tried many other styles, but i only lasted for about 4 months in each. But Kung-Fu is really suited to me (i was about an orange sash when i tried other styles, so it may have been that i didn't like there moves because i could compare them to something else).
And you ca't just ignore people for their comments, they have a right!
But anyone who says that Tae-Kwon-Do is crap needs to have first hand experience. I wasn't suited to it because my kicks arn't the fastest, hell their strong, but they lack speed (most kicks of mine do)

if people ever come up against a TKD practitioner and beat them, it does not mean that your style is better than theirs, it has everything to do with the person. i.e. they may have not been in form, you might be higher level, they may have made a crutial mistake.
If you judge a style, you must judge every person, all the history, past events etc... not one person, one person cannot repsresent a style in whole (excluding some rare cases such as Bruce Lee, who developed the style)

...forget I said that part.

And about my friend...I was just passing along info from him...not necessarily saying one style is better than another.

five_animals is right about different martial arts suiting different ppl. and as for c_jks..of course everyone has a different opinion. but noone has the right to call any marial art crap. its allright if u say it doesnt work for u or u just dont like it. but dont say an art sucks or its useless just because u dont like it..

oh five_animals...Bruce never developed a style =] ..he developed a philosophy of fighting technically because his purpose was to not have a style =]..so as to not restrict oneself to certain movements.

It was just justed for an example
I thought it was a style anyway, o well. as i said, we are here to learn

"its allright if u say it doesnt work for u or u just dont like it. but dont say an art sucks or its useless just because u dont like it.."

Yeah, I know, and that's what I was trying to get across, is that it didn't work for him. I just didn't do it so well. Sorry.

i did tae kwon do for a while, the only reason i left is cos they moved the dojo and i couldnt get there, but it has some great kicks, and if i were you id go for it, but it might be advisable to take up another more "hands" on style like karate or southern kung fu just so you dont end up using your legs constantly.

It's a pity I've only read this article now.

Tae Kwon-do offers aspects that other arts do not, but it also fails in aspects that other arts excel in. For example, it does not incorporate locks, throws or punches to any great extent (Hapkido for a long time correctly being an art in its own right). On the other hand, as correctly mentioned above, Tae Kwon-do has developed kicking ability that is above and beyond that of most other martial arts, and I'd suggest much of which, setting aside the dramatic jumping kicks, can be used to good affect in self defence. Of course, I assume here the user knows how best to defend themselves given the particular situation.

I always find the inability of one martial art recognise and acknowledge the strengths of another amusing (I'm not saying everyone does this, but many do), as if it really matters. If I was being honest, and I'm sure the majority of readers will disagree before they actually read and understand what I am saying, some of Bruce Lee's writings on other arts are eyebrow raising to say the least. Let's not forget that an art is the product of human creativity and the manifestation of the lifestyle of a people, and in putting an art down you are dismissing an entire evolution. This is not something I would do lightly nor something I would assume to have the position or understanding after even my 17 years of training to do. Sadly, most of us now think of a martial art as the ability to kick someone in the arse and head at the same time.

For those of you that are now uncertain, that's a sport, not an art.

Given that the originator did not say what they were looking for in a martial art, it's a bit difficult to say whether or not Tae Kwon-do, or any other martial art for that matter is good, bad or indifferent. Of course, that didn't stop the advice, I'd just wonder on which basis was it built. Is someone looking for pure self defence, then look towards Krav Maga. Are they looking at a style that is known for, for want of a better phrase, traditional aspects, then look towards a style of Karate such as Shotokan. This is the most basic information missing, I'm shocked no one has yet noticed but continued to pitch one art against another nonetheless.

TKD is useless against other martial arts. It is just a copy of many martial arts. it is more interested in patterns than any thing else, and at my old school i was told that all martial arts are not just about fighting that's the small part of tae kwon do and other martial arts he also said that martial arts are more about entertainment

TKD is not a usless martial art!! and whoever says martial arts is more about entertainment is not a very good martial artist, for they do not understand the true meaning behind martial arts.
there are, although, people who join martial arts for different reasons; get fit, confident, learn how to fight etc etc... and one of these is entertainment... but martial arats is not about entertainment

most styles have TKD kicks in them. Bruce Lee's kicks all came from tae kwan do, so its obviously not uselsss. I mean, it does lack proper punching and grappling, but TKD surely has the some of the best kicks out of any art.

It also depends on the instructor. Theres a 7th degree Master in my area, who was like the lead fighting teacher in the Korean Army. He's amazing. Blindfolded, jumping and kicking 4 targets, also a master of Kumdo (Derived from Bushido). When he came to Canada from Korea, 9 guys jumped him, and he beat the crap out of em. He also teaches hapkido and some grappling.

Taekwondo is a perfectly good martial art, you may think that it is all about kicks but your wrong. I have been to many dojo's and have seen grappling, joint locks, throws, punching, knife hand stirkes, i could go on for a while but thats just some of the techniques i have seen. Wtf style tkd is more about the kicks but if you see rhee tkd or itf tkd than you will see that it is as practical as any other art, and just remember that it depends entirely on the person and how they adapt to their style.

Most modern TKD concentrate on kicks. but if you find and "old school" TKD teacher there is just as many hand techniques as there are leg techniques

I have been "actively" been doing WTF Taekwondo for a number of years now, i have graded to 4th Dan and i think its sad to hear people unhappy with their chosen style or unhappy with other people choices. Taekwondo has given me various skills but my first instructor gave me a train of thought, and that was no style is bad only that instructor or practitioner. ok, i agree arts do have restrictions but if you feel you are weak in one area adress it don't ignore it, i currently train in western style boxing, some Kali, some grappling and some JKD. each art specialises and so do each instructor, keep an open mind and travel and learn from whoever and do whatever.
Taekwondo is an art, like many more learn from it what you need and move on but don't disrespect it. currently Wtf olympic teams around the world are employing sports scientists to improve their teams kicking skills and get that edge. how many other sports/martial arts are getting that help.
in self defence that split second reaction could be the difference between walking away or being carried away. sport is different yes i agree but that controlled agression is needed in both. Taekwondo has lots to offer maybe to you, or maybe not to you. but don't you make that choice for other people let them choose. we are after all "individuals"

Yes, we are all individuals, and whenever someone asks us about another style, they shoulnd't believe every word that we say. Although when people read it they get that impression, but i am here to learn from people, and to braoden peoples persepctives, give them something to think abut on a style.
You promote how olympic TKD practishioners are getting special help from sprots scientists, and you ask the rhetorical question of, "how many other sprots/styles are getting that help?" the eadsy asnwer from me, is none, because i don't need their help. and i have to say,that almost every sport competing in the olympics will be getting help from such people.

Tell me, how are your knees. I am always asking this to Ballet and TKD people, because records show that TKD have the worst knee/ankle problems after Ballet. So is there any exercises that you were taught to prevent such things from happening?

i think because training methods have progressed from the way training was done " back in the day" we should see a decrease in long term injuries. we all get injured at various points in our martial arts training or career, but i think its how we look after those injuries that helps us for our future.

i read your article and i noticed you said you wouldn't want the help of sports scientist , that is your choice. but if i can learn something from these guys which will give me longevity in my training , i'm going to listen to them very carefully. also i do appreciate most " olympic sports" do get help i actually meant to ask which martial arts get help, but like you say its only help if you think its beneficial to you or your art.
and by the way my knees and ankles are fine "so far". :-) but who knows what the future holds, oh yeh that right maybe the sport scientist know ........ thanks for your reply to my comment.

one of the reasons that TKD has so many spin kicks anyway is cos it was for the Korean army, and cos they wear big heavy boots then it makes knocking someone out a hell of a lot easier.

the reason for all of the fancy kicks and the jumping kicks goes back to the korean wars. they developed these kicks to knock the officers off their horses.

That shows how much power they really pack then hey, but that is if you connect of course

The use of flying kicks to dismount cavalry is true, they were traditionally used as a method of ambush, for example, leaping over a hedge that you were previously concealed behind as cavalry passed by. Surprisingly, you don't need much power at that point, even 9 or 10 stone hitting you in the side of the head means you're going to fall over. Regarding actually connecting, the head is a pretty big target from the side when the recepient is unsuspecting, and even without connecting, the momentum of your body will most likely knock the person off.
I'd be interested to hear more from 'nay-ho', justifying his statement that Tae Kwon-do is useless against other martial arts. In what sense is it useless? Are you comparing the rules of TKD against an art that uses grappling or other such fighting styles, or are you saying that someone who practices TKD could not fight in an open rules contest against other syles? That's a bold statement to make, given that you've said or proven nothing to back it up.

Hi..

People saying that TKD is "crap" its wrong...it only has some dis advantages...

i went to a club...where mixed martial arts are thoght..

a mix of TKD and karate-do...

i remember my sensei syaing that...
we have the "speed of a Tae Kwon Do and the Power of Karate Do"

so if you think TKD is "crap" try Mixing it with other martial arts..

if been in that club for about 4 years...i was 13 when i became a green belt...

since we are mixed martial arts...Were Leg sweeping and grappling are allowed..and that of TKD..leg sweeping and some advanced grappling are not allowed...we have alot of fun sparring...

so TKD is not "crap" it only has some dis advatages compared to other martial arts...

check out "Hwoarang" in Tekken whose TKD is his specialty...and "Jin kazama" in tekken whose specialty it mishima style KARATE....try combining them...and imagine..."speed of a TKD..and Power of Karate"...

I find a few things wrong with your post... You say that TKD is not crap, yet you say how it should be mixed with another style. If the style itself is not crap, then there is no need to mix it.
Also, the people from tekken cannot be used as proper examples from a style, they are computerised enhanced martial artists... so different to the actual style.
I don't think TKD is crap... but there are some flaws, which every style has... well not really flaws... they just do things differently.

Its not true that tae kwon do doesn't work in a fight... i don't know where people get such idiodic ideas!

I believe Thai boxing outranks tae kwon do 100%. the attacks are more effective and deadly. kicks are harder using the shin, and theres no fancy crap.

Thai boxing rules.

If you are trying to judge a martial art why not cut the crap and see how it fairs in the ring? Please do some more research, check out how Kaoklai the muay thai fighter who won the K1 heavy weight category....height 5’11” Weight: 172 lbs

This guy knocked out mighty mo, who weighs 283 pounds with a flying round house kick to the head. he beat the shit out of guys who had a foot in height on him and 30 kgs in wieght!!!!!! Give me one example where another martial art has done such amazing things in the ring?

Or check out Buakaw por puramuk... have u seen that guy kick????!!!! Or Remy Bonjasky? While TKD and Kung Fu have been made popular by martial arts movies, so now u can train three times a week and become a 'fighter' or get a belt or whatever... Thai fighters have been fighting for thousands of years, training full time. A thai fighter is a physical machine, ive trained with these guys and TKD guys and kung fu guys, you have no idea how disciplined and rigourous and fit and brutal u have to be to fight muay thai!!!!!!!

Whats more, k1 is a japanese competition, and the rules have been changed repeatedly to disadvantage muay thai fighters. Limited clinching and knees for example, no elbows...one of muay thai's most effective techniques. Do u think the guys who fight UFC waist their time on flashy crap that is TKD?

Lets look at competition TKD, or olympic TKD. I watched it in the last olympics and was bored to tears, pathetic. Muay Thai is an art ingrained in thai culture that has been tried and tested time and time again. Thai fighters fight from when they are very young, full thai rules!!! and if u dont know what they are its pretty simple, no ground fighting, kicking in the nuts ,head butting or biting...everything else goes. these guys fight for a living!!!!!! they only use what works.

There is no belt system in muay thai. A fighter is judged purely on his fight record... wake up... Thai fighting is not only the most efficient and deadly striking art, but it is the most beautiful. The power in those strikes destroys any flashy moves and in all the fights ive seen where muay thai goes up against anything else, the other guys are left sprawling on the floor. Its roots are deep in tradition and culture, and every true thai fighter is humble and respectful.

Im not a true thai fighter tho, so shut up, thai boxing will fuck any style up...
........apart from styles like BJJ that use ground fighting and submission. these guys DO have one advantage on Thai fighters. BUT the best fighters in the world (look at UFC, Pride) cross train, and most will tell u a combination of muay thai and submission fighting is the most effective.

To tell u the truth, all the guys i know who train TKD in the west generally have a little man complex or are geeks trying to prove something. Or are retards who are crap at sport and can't get on the school team...
check this link out, it describes a competition in the 80's where a thai boxing ANNHILATES kung fu...

members.aol.com

Muay thai is a beautiful and efficient art, effective and deadly with tradition, but no bullshit. U are not going to knock anyone out with a spinning flying flipping TKD kick... but u are likely to rip their head off with a muay thai round house.

This is getting pretty boring, and has just turned into a pile of people mouthing off, and generally with no real basis. (Butters, if TKD sparring bores you, don't watch it. There are numerous cases where smaller fighters have beaten larger fighters, that doesn't tell you anything about the arts used, only the fighters. All martial arts have foundations based over thousands of years, and each has changed since. I'd recommend you look at the definition of a martial art before putting forward that type of argument).

Lets look at it a different way. Basically, you can split the use of martial arts up into 2 sections

* sparring; usually each art spars against itself so there is no way to show how much better one is over another that way. Where a competition is of the open variety, participants have usually trained in a number of different styles, so it doesn't show one pure art against another. And yes, I'm sure someone will come back saying they saw someone using pure Wado Ryu against someone using pure TKD and they kicked their ass in like 9 seconds whilst eating a steak dinner. I have a cat who beat a dog we had in a fight, but I wouldn't be putting money on cats against dogs in general

* self defence; any good teacher will tell you that a martial art only gives you an advantage for self defence so, quiet simply, if you are attacked and safely walk away afterwards, whatever you used works. This is regardless of whether you box, train in martial arts, or just came on to your attacker.

If I can recall correctly, the original question was whether TKD was any good, but they said what they wanted to train for. If you are happy with your training, and fell it is giving you what YOU want, not what someone else wants, keep it up. If it doesn't meet your needs, look around until you find one that does. Just make sure you are fully aware what your needs are and make sure they are realistic.

I can't imagine most people want to train to fight for a living.

competitions of an 'open variety'.... hmmm.... like UFC or Pride? How many TKD specialists are there in those competitions? how many cross train muay thai? Look at the kicks, they are muay thai kicks.

Sounds like a tough pussy, but sure ONE example hardly speaks for an entire art... BUT how about MANY examples? Sure Kaoklai is an amazing fighter, but he fights Thai style... not TKD. Ernesto Hoost, the 4 time K1 champion or whatever... he fought Muay Thai... and Buakaw, 2 time k1 max champion, yup, you guessed it, MUAY THAI. Remy Bonjasky... MUAY THAI...

'No real basis'... i've given many examples, check out the link.

I never said people should choose muay thai to make a career out of it...The reason Muay Thai has developed in to the best stand up fighting art is its the only martial art that is fought competetivley on such a massive scale, with very limited rules. The competition ensures people use what works, because if these thai guys dont, they could end up unable to fight any more, unable to make a living. The best fighters come from the gutters...

i know where i'll place my bets.

Base

Niether one, nor many speak for an art.
i know karate fighters arw good, but i havn'ty lost to one in such a long time it makes me think about their style... my kung fu skills have been enough to beat them, but does it make it any less of a style.
TKD kicks, Muay Thai kicks, karate kicks, kung fu kicks... there can only be so many kicks, there are som that are bound to be the same technique; same with hand techniques, self defence, blocking etc etc...
you say that muay thai is better over the TKD becuase you have named its champions, but you have not named the TKD champions... so you cannot make a comparison through this variable.

As many have said before, it does not matter what style is better, it all matters why you want to do that style.
Jet Li has won many world championships in Wushu, but does that mean that his style his better than others?! NO! it means he is an exceptional martial artist who has taken well to his style.

When it does come down to a TKD fighter vs. a muay thai fighter, i too would put my money on the muay thai fighter, simply becuase of the style, but there is NOTHING stopping the TKD fighter from kicking his arse, because he has found his own unique way to apply his style.

anyone here know herold gravely?
my instucter beat his ass and embarassed the hell out of him. herold cant fight to save his life against a skilled fighter, tournament fighting sucks big turkey nuts. i'd be willing to accept a challenge from anyone taught by herold gravely. infact i would accept a challenge from herold himself but we go full contact no point fighting, we go no rules, no holds barred, and no limitations.

never heard of him, how big is he, and where is he located?
i am interested to know if the 'crane' in your name is for anything in particular to do with your style, or just something you lioke to have.

Ok, BB, I have a few questions abour ITF and Taekwondo in general.
What kind of sparring do you do in the ITF?
Why can't the " art" of Taekwondo be something that's effective in a fight? I hope you realize that the word art can also mean craft or skill ( Like the art of baking).

u guys are still dissing eachothers styles, and saying wich style is better and crap.... when will u guys learn that style has nothing to do with it.. its the individual. true, every style is different, but it doesnt mean that each person that does the same style is exactly the same in it... some are better then others.

but w/e, u guys have no philosiphy.... to most of u its all just wut expenses different martial arts have. (im not reffering to all of u)

Put a lid on it, man. You ain't gettin' nowhere ( BTW, if you're referring to the comments before nicoletkd's, some of those were made.... A while ago). Not everyone has to share the same opinion.

You're just spouting your opinion. You ain't saying why we should follow your views. Why the hell do I need philosophy? And what the hell is it?

By the way, Onite, you are a freaking hypocrite( I bet you don't even know what that means).

Here's what you said in one discussion:

" i know its a little late to be saying this (or really late)
but wtf, aikido does suck." ( Can be found in Bruce Lee vs. Mas Oyama article)

This is what you say now:
"u guys are still dissing eachothers styles, and saying wich style is better and crap.... when will u guys learn that style has nothing to do with it.. its the individual."


Haha, Dazodiac used to make fun of you, Onite.
( Paraphrased from other article)

" Although it be true dat no style is better than another, surely you wood agree dat some styles are better than others. You cannot argue wit my hypkritical logick!"

wow, people are getting dumber nowdays.
kingofraus, research some philosophy, it can help in your martial arts, but mainly for your mental, not physical.
but the reason for this post is for nicoletkd
If you are a black belt in tkd then you of all people should know that stances are not for show and demonstrations as part of the art. Stances are a training method to build strength. 99% of styles won't use a horse stance to fight from, but 90% train horse stance. It is a means of strengthening your legs!

not good for a workout... is this because you can't hold a proper horse stance for over 1 minute...
horse stance is a lot touigher than everyone thinks it to be.
karate has adopted have the toes pointed out on 45 degrees, a proper horse stance both feet are pointing directly to the front.
If you can do this with a verticle back, a staff/barbell/broom handle going acroos your legs and not falling off and hold it for 10 minutes your legs will get just as strong as any weights will. and that is just the stationary horse stance, you have stepping patterns within the patterns.

so you think doing gym exercises with weights is better?
do you do squats? holy shit, its horse stance going up and down. i know people doing squats focus on the up and down part, but if you can hold it when your down then it will strengthen your legs the same.

i agree that most kung fu stances are 'silly' for fights, but for training methods and boosting your physical and mental state they are some of the best exercises you can do.

don't you find it odd, that a traditional martial artist who uses no weights can get just as strong as a modern martial artist that uses weights?

kingofraust.. honestly, how old are u? do u have a life.... ur some kind of super martial arts nerd.

Well, five-animals, unlike you ( I assume) I've actually compared TMA stance training with weight training some bit, and that is my honest opinion. Silly stances aren't useful for fighting, and although some stances and body positions that look cool do take some good conditioning to do, I'd always put weight training above them for strength training value.

As for the "traditional" martial artists vs. " modern" martial artists, I've found that " modern" ( I put that in quotes, because what you might consider a modern art is actually much older than most arts that are considered traditional. Wrestling and MMA ( Pankration) are old as hell; wrestling is as old as the sands of time.) tend to be physically stronger and tougher than traditional martial artists due to the more intensive and combat oriented training. I've seen strong TMAists, but they're usually big guys that are strong anyway.


As for Onite: If you have a real arguement, present it. Your ad hominem attacks ( Attacking the man, rather than the subject) are silly, and weak; they won't get us anywhere.

i have also done both weiht training (not hardcore weights, just as a side thing) and then the TMA training. both will get you to the same place. But weights will get you there quicker, but it won't as efficient. whereas TMA conditioning will take a lot longer but will last a lot longer and won't do as much damage. youhardly see an 80 year old weights eprson lift the same as when they did in their prime. yet i've seen footage of an old guy (he looks around 80) do a one fingered handstand.

look at onites last sentance... he "acknowledges" that your a super martial arts nerd, there was no rhetorical question.

Yes, I'm sure you have a very solid base to make your judgements. Well, your experience does not equal my experience, because I've seen weight training people stay in shape into old age, while many TMAists end up with a gut.

Your assumption that TMA training will last you in the long run as opposed to MMA training is false. Your assumption is that because it takes longer to develop skills in a TMA, you will develop skills that will surpass a MMAists skills at an older age.

Listen here: If you train in an art that takes you ten years to get at the punching level of a second martial art that teaches you to punch that well in 6 monthes, then the training methods of the first MA are simply less effiecent than the second MA. Unless you seriously changeup your training in punching in the first MA, then you aren't gonna get better then them at that. Because the second MA just doesn't stop developing its punches, they still get better, and they'll stay several steps ahead of you.

Ron Van Clief, an aging karate grandmaster, couldn't accomphlish what the aging Randy Couture accomphlished in MMA ( Early and modern). Van Clief lost to champ in a few minutes, Couture sodomized a champ for 5 rounds. The old master Clief lost, even though he literally had been practicing MA longer than his opponent had been alive.

wut subject? u are the subject, im making a subject out of u. u visit this site everyday to stir up debates and arguments.... now im sure this could be good practice for w/e ever job u'll have later on, but c'mon. my suggestion to u is to get a girl.... get a job.... and life.

by the way, if u keep bringing urself into the topic, why dont u start posting pics of urself up. honestly, u talk to majesticaly, i cant understand u.

yeah, i did myself judge another style not to long ago, but it was enough time for me to change my mind. understand? and yes, ur way to physical, i mixed my physics with philosiphy, such as bruce lee did. look at some of his philosiphy, there in quote forms.

in answer to kingofruas's questions
when u said *the art of baking*. i thought it was tae kwon do we were talkin about here? not the art of baking!
and what do you mean by what *kind*of itf sparring do we do?

no, not 10 years to develop a punching game, if you're really that blind then you need to experience some other martial arts.
a style like boxing. boxers can get really good at what they do because it, in terms of techniques, has about fuck all vairety.
muay thai has got more, then MMA, then karate and then kung fu (rough scale)
at my kung fu school, we will learn everything that MMA fighters learn, but there is a whole heap more for us to learn as well.
If we concentrated on a very limited specrtum of techniques then we'd get just as good just as fast. but we don't limit ourselves. yet we make all these techniques that MMA and other styles ignore just as practical as the basic punches and kicks. and because of this it takes longer.

but i must admit, that its generally the basics that win the fight. when i wrestle, i know a heap of fancy finishing moves... but its the basic submission that generally win the fight for me. Basics are basic because they work. MMA people get knocked around too much, so they can grasped the nature of more 'advanced' techniques

Onite, it's called free time. Do you assume that because I make 1 or 2 posts a day that I sit around at my computer for six hours waiting for a reply? Get educated about teh intraweb.

As for nicoletkd, it's quite simple. Do you hit eachother with full force in a continous match; do you throw your techniques out but don't actually connect( No contact) ; or do you put on heavy gear and tap eachother with your techniques.


5-animals: I'm glad you acknowledge the importance of the basics and the use of simple techniques over uber-fancy moves. In fact, I'm actually quite surprised that someone who has experience in live sparring would still promote the " advanced" super-fancy techniques. ( Hae you ever actually done any real, San Shou ish, kung-fu sparring? I remember you saying that you get to spar at black sash, but I don't recall your rank.)

I've actually heard people talk about suc things. Generally, they say, that even advanced TMAists who train on all these techniques ( Depending on the methods) get bogged down by all the fancy stuf and just resort to the simple jab, roundkick techniques when in a fight. But even those techniques tend to be slow and unreliable because of all the extra time spent on the " advanced" moves.

I ask you this anyway: What can a spinning-jumping hammerfist accomphlish that a jab trained to high profiency cannot?

first off, i am a 3rd degree.
up until red sash its pretty much touch contact
red to black its contact with gear
black onwards its full contact with gloves and mouth guard (more if you want it)
this is a guide line that we go by, but doesn't mean to say people under red ash havn't bashed on eachother.
The animal styles i find very practical in real life situations, but never if you complety stick to that style. such as a tiger never retreats, a crane never advances... i like to have a core fighting style, and then apply the animal techniques within that; simply because if i stick to the one animal i will be limited and i hate being limited.
but thats not to say they don't work. i have handled a couple of street situations using pure crane. and pretty much all karate and tkd people can't fight a TD tiger fighter. i have a problem fighting MMA with tiger because they themselves are tigers in spirit... and the shit don't work quite as well.
but yeah, tiger is a very practical style.

anywho, why the hell would i do a spinning jumping hammer fist? spinning and hammer if it was the right occassion... but i would never punch without some sort of ground connection! you've got nothing to drive power from, you have just as much chance as pushing yourself backwards as landing an effective punch whilst you're airborn.

the advanced moves (please keep in mind i am in no way a wushu person) are more effective and dangerous to the other person than the basic moves, but they have a higher percentage of fucking up, so because of that its sometimes not worth it. but, if you do the proper training then you can get the percentage of application a lot higher.

I taught TKD for approximately 20 years. I've had two instructors, both Korean and 7th Dan. I also had a year where I needed extra money and taught TKD kicks in a group Kempo class. One of my instructors taught a hard direct approach. He said the longer a fight lasts, the more chance of being hurt. He would often say, "one punch or one kick kill," emphasizing power, deemphasizing useless movement. He taught that speed equaled power and also that specific twists of the body (physics) provided additional speed and power at the moment of impact. The other instructor I was with focused on multiple attacks of kicks and punches based on a presumption that the first of your attacks would be blocked or avoided by your attacker/opponent. Both were phenomenal teachers. Being a police officer at one point in my working life, I've had the need to use TKD on several occasions against a person I was arresting that went on the attack. TKD works. I've also seen a student who after abot 9 months of training, get in a fight, deliver a kick to the midsection that would not have been blocked. The opponent's eyes went wide realizing he could have been hurt. The problem was that the student misjudged his distance and ended up short. His opponent had over 50 pounds of muscle on him and was an experience wrestler. Two seconds after the misjudged kick, the wrestler tackled him and put him in a painful body lock. TKD is a Korean Martial Art. The Korean's also have Hapkido. I know several instructors and have watched their classes. They place less emphasis on the kicks than in TKD and about half emphasis on "grappling," ie. wrist and arm locks, throws, wrestling-like body locks (but more advanced) and somewhat similar to aikido as well. Here is the overall lesson I learned. When your opponent is further away, you use kicks to your advantage. Kicks are more powerful and have longer reach than punches. They can be devastating and have the power to kill if done with proper form, speed and accuracy. When an opponent gets a little closer, punches, knife hands, and a variety of hand strikes are appropriate. Inside that circle, within one foot distance, elbows and knees are great for attacking (Muay Thai is excellent for this/so is Krav Maga). Once grabbing has occured, wrestling, Hapkido, JuiJitsu, and other grappling arts are appropriate. AND of course, the amount you practice and how well you practice can make the difference between one martial artist and another or against an experienced street fighter. One unexpected punch, kick or tackle can take you or your opponent out of the fight all together. Different styles are good for different things. One thing I do not understand is the styles that wave the arms around in the air, I'm guessing to distract an opponent. I saw this with Kempo and Kung Fu. I'm not sure a well-trained martial artist would be distracted. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Another problem with less experienced fighters is that they telegraph their punches and kicks. It makes it easier to move away or to counter attack. So, depending on the style you are most proficient at, you move or attempt to move into a position that gives you the advantage while your opponent may be trying to do the same. So .... that's my opinion!!!

Jeff Z.
coach01@ameritech.net

taekwondo can be described as many things, an art, a hobbie, and to some people their life. this is true to all martial arts and although some people like to go around saying one martial art is better than another or that one martial art is crap, their is no point to doing it. Because who cares if one martial art is better than another because in the end we are all searching for the same things, self discipline, training/conditioning, and even a place to mingle. and those who say a martial art is useless against another one is weird because why would two people with discipline towards violance, come to the agreement that they have to fight to settle an indifference. really, a martial art is like a religion on all the ways that i said before, and also it will cause people to have dissagreements that will lead to fights but really to solve all of the problems in the world of martial arts hell all of the discliplines with beleifs is not to down one another but to look at nothing but the positive of one another and to love them for what they are. I really hope that somebody reads this and spreads the knowlage.


peace and eternal love among everyone,

first, why do you use so much profanity? is it because you feel that you can't get a point through unless you add a couple s's and f's around it? I bet it is, but anyways of course i've taken alought of hits because I have a red belt in taekwondo and have been in 4 months of training in MMA grappling "and am planning to continue it." now to call my statement "ludicrious" i think is a little overboard because its valad. in taekwondo, my class frequently practices avoiding lunging or opponets that are shooting in at our legs, and in case we have a leg or arm caught and we are suddenly on the ground, we are taught various joint manipiulations and pressure points.also what do you mean(espescialy a taekwondoer) taekwondo kicks are some of the most powerful kicks in martial arts (for example back kick, side kick, and from some people even a simple front kick). I would bet my gui that you haven't spent 5 minutes in a taekwondo class and even if you did you probaly weren't paying an ounce of attention. now i would like to see your credentials and to whatever they are you're surely a dissgrace to them seeing how you're so violent over somthing as meaningless as written script!

p.s. the 360 roundhouse, just a exagerration.
peace.

Kingfraus is right, if u wanna fight grappling with strikes then learn how to strike in close range, Muay Thai, Wing chun, or Boxing.. A Tae Kwon Do practicioner has a small chance of winning once a grappler has taken hold of him/her and an even smaller chance of exuctin a 360 roundhouse, you'd have an easier time doing a normal roundhouse buddy.

Take care.xoxo

I didn't take your comment seriously enough for a completely serious response ( Go fuck yourself).

Haven't spent 5 minutes in a Taekwondo class? Try 5 years ( May be a little more than that, like 6. I'm a black belt, btw). I ain't talking out of my ass. Let me just question some of the stuff you said ( Don't bitch about me using quotation marks, please).

" i've taken alought of hits because I have a red belt in taekwondo"

Does that mean that you practice regular, hard sparring at your school ( Using 100 percent or near a 100 percent power in your strikes)? If so, then high five, you lucky s.o.b. You at a good school.


"and have been in 4 months of training in MMA grappling "and am planning to continue it."

Why are you quoting yourself? Nevermind. Ask your grappling teacher where he trained. Some TMA schools put on grappling programs to take advantage of the current grappling fad without having any decent grappling training themselves. Be wary, because I assume you have now experience in other grappling schools ( No base for comparison is what I mean).


"in taekwondo, my class frequently practices avoiding lunging or opponets that are shooting in at our legs,"

Are they trained wrestlers that are actually trying to take you down?


"and in case we have a leg or arm caught and we are suddenly on the ground, we are taught various joint manipiulations and pressure points."

Pressure points? Now I know you're not learning real grappling.


"also what do you mean(espescialy a taekwondoer) taekwondo kicks are some of the most powerful kicks in martial arts (for example back kick, side kick, and from some people even a simple front kick). "

Have you actually trained in other striking styles to make a comparison? And, btw, the snapping style kicks that are featured in Taekwondo use more speed than power ( Because of the snap). You can hit hard with them, but they're still not recognized as the world's hardest.


Now, here's where I'm coming from. It's actually been shown in actual competitive fights ( With very limited rules) between strikers and grapplers that the grappler will tend to get the takedown and dominant from there. Apparently, it's just the mechanics of the human body: For most strikers, it's hard to knock out a guy in only a few hits, which is usually the most they get off before a grappler closes the distance.


But screw all the talking and unverifiable anecdotes. Here are some video references for you to look up:

UFCs 1-4, with Royce Gracie. These contests pitted grapplers against strikers alot, and the rules between contests varied from extremely liberal to pretty much no-holds-barred. The grapplers to dominate in said fashion.

Also look up grapplers like Dan Severn. I remember in his fight against Marcus Bosset ( A kiddie karate instructor) he took a hard body hit, but still won.


"Kingfraus is right, if u wanna fight grappling with strikes then learn how to strike in close range, Muay Thai, Wing chun, or Boxing.. "

Here, check this boxer out: www.youtube.com

You'll still get taken down, espiceally if you practice something shitty like wing-chun.

Edit: There are also other mixed bouts posted along the side for reference.

black belt? what dan are you? and btw the most my class uses, and im talking about when were only yellow belts, are macho brand hand guards, foot guards, shin pads,and a helmet. when I was a lower belt they did take it easy on me by only going 50 percent, but when i reached green belt id say we were going 90 to 85 percent. the only time i had to wear a body guard was when i received a back kick from a fifth dan black belt and he dissloged two of my ribs. embarrassing...

in my class we are taught not only give our kicks speed but to also have power and accuracy. the snap isnt the main focus point to the kick, but to also add body movement and weight behind it to give it that umph!

if you want to see taekwondo kicks against others, look for a show called fight sceince on national geographic, and the only thing there that could beat it was a knee from a myai thai fighter.

my grappling instructor is a former marine and current member in the fbi who has a black belt in judo (not sure which dan) and i would think that would be great enough credentials to think that hes a worthy if not ideal teacher for grappling and joint locks.

no we are not using real wrestlers, but a 7th dan black belt in hapkido if that means anything.

the pressure points are what we are learning in taekwondo not grappling. and before you say any tnig about it there is such things as pressure points there are just no such thing as touching a certain part on the body and their head falls off.

now sure you have evidence that grappling beats striking ocassionly but i would like to get back to my first subject GLIMA VS TAEKWONDO. now kingofraus if you really are a black belt in taekwondo then dont you think you could beat "a fat greek guy". and if so dont you think taekwondo should be given a second chance?
please answer
peace

"if you want to see taekwondo kicks against others, look for a show called fight sceince on national geographic, and the only thing there that could beat it was a knee from a myai thai fighter."

I wouldn't use that show as reference. I haven't seen it, but I heard they didn't take into account differences in weight and other key factors.

"my grappling instructor is a former marine and current member in the fbi who has a black belt in judo (not sure which dan) and i would think that would be great enough credentials to think that hes a worthy if not ideal teacher for grappling and joint locks."

Judo? Hmm, what org? I could probably find out if you told me his name or gave me his website. I, myself, did a judo tourney once. I don't do judo anymore, but I think I'm still registered in USJA

"no we are not using real wrestlers, but a 7th dan black belt in hapkido if that means anything."

One guy? Hapkido? No, it doesn't mean much. Practicing grappling defense with people that don't know how to shoot doesn't mean much at all.

"the pressure points are what we are learning in taekwondo not grappling. and before you say any tnig about it there is such things as pressure points there are just no such thing as touching a certain part on the body and their head falls off."

Just because you aren't learning flat out bullshit doesn't mean the pressure points you are learning will be effective against an actual grappler. I've dealt with some assorted pressure points before, and I can honestly tell you that you'll need a really solid ground game to put them to good use.

"now sure you have evidence that grappling beats striking ocassionly but i would like to get back to my first subject GLIMA VS TAEKWONDO. now kingofraus if you really are a black belt in taekwondo then dont you think you could beat "a fat greek guy". and if so dont you think taekwondo should be given a second chance?
please answer"

Did I type greek? I meant geek. Well, if it's the best of both arts, then it can really be a toss up between the two. However, if you take a Taekwondo guy that represents the majority ( Little to no contact point sparring) and put him up against the supposedly fat Icelandic wrestler, then my vote goes to Glima.

By the way, I was arguing what seemed to be the primary theme of your post, that long range beats close range.

i dont remeber his name because he told me four months ago and i can only refer to him as sir. ill get back to you on that. and no my main topic was glima vs taekwondo, now if it were taekwondo vs judo and taekwondo lost i wouldnt care because it makes more sense.

I started Tae Kwon Do and Hopkido at the same time and I studied under one of the first masters to come to California back in the 70's. The style I learned was much different than the style my children were taught, becasue now everybody wants to enter tournaments, my children were only taught round house kicks so they could score points. What I was taught was much different, maybe because my master wasn't into tournaments, because I squared off with a guy at a party one night and I knew he studied Kenpo and was left handed. He was expecting me to use my legs when he came at me, but I hyper extended his left arm and poped his elbo, then followed up with a knife hand jab to his under arm area, and then hit him in the back of the head with an elbo. That dropped him as well as surpprised him, and I was surpprised as well because he had more martial art experience than me. Tae kwon do with Hopkido is a good combination, it worked for me in several street-fights, but I finally got into Kenpo, I had a friend teach me some of the technigues. I used the technigues I learned in the streets because of the life style I lived and the people who lived in my neiborhood, I wasn't one of those guys who was interested in health or sports, I didn't have time for that, so ya, Tae kwon do works in real life fights (the kind without judges or referees).

and yea I'm pretty much talking to you kingofruas.

kingofraus has been annoying other people for a long time on this website.
anywho...
there are a couple of styles now days that have been bastardised. the two biggest, in my view, are karate and TKD.
a lot of karate instructors did a 6 week black belt course, and since its sooo common, there are too many gaps for bullshit to get in. in saying that, there are masters in Okinawa who are fantastic martial artists.
Hanshi tino Ceberano, is the world leader in Goju Ryu karate, i have trained in his school, my sifu has got a black belt under him... it is old school karate.

all you have to do is watch a TKD competition... where are their hands? around their belt! TKD now days is too focused on their kicking game, an not nearly as much focused on their hand skills. but there are still some proper TKD masters out there that teach both sides (also, high kicks could not reach a person on a horse... think about it, not only are they outta range, but are you going to put your balance off to that extent to kick someone off a horse that is running at you?)

but no matter how old school, or traditional, you can find in karate or tkd... they're still not looking at the entire game.
every martial art, should be able to:
STRIKE= punches, kicks, palms etc etc
CLINCH= anytime you are holding onto someone, whether it be wrist, thai clinch, or everything inbetween
GROUND= positions, submission etc
as a general:
Karate=Striking
TKD= half the striking (kicks)
Hapkido = has basics of all three (best so far)
muay thai = striking and clinch
jiu-jitsu = clinch (for purpose of take downs and control, not striking) and ground
aikido = clinch and basic striking
most kung fu = strike
MMA = all

the list goes on. if your styles does not have them, then at least now the basics. a TKD fighter learns nothing of what to do if a guy has mounted you (sitting on top of you, you on your back, him on your stomach)

every style should always have a way to get back to their preferred way of fighting. a karate guy gets taken down, he should know how to get out of mount, and back to his feet, at least! where he can start striking again. he should also know how to stop the takedown in the first place, like the sprawl


ask a karate fighter what they would do if someone tried a double leg take down (if they know what a double leg take down is then they're already one step ahead of most karate people lol)
most people would say, knee the head, or kick the nuts.
BULL SHIT!
knee the head and you still have 80-90kg of man and muscle flying at your legs, the knee won't stop the guy's momentum
kick in the nuts. grapplers trained in take downs... i'm pretty sure they know that getting kicked in the nuts hurts, and they have ways around it.

i am fortunate enough that in my kung fu school, not only do we have the broadest variety of striking, but we have a full ground game, and at this stage a basic clinch game. and in a very practical way (in no way or no how is my shaolin modern wushu)

all of you out there, if you joined martial arts for fighting (since martial arts can be for fitness, defence, spiritual, just forms etc etc) and you do not have at least the basics in all three categories, talk to your masters/sifu/teacher and ask to be taught the basics. if worst comes to worst, go find another that does teach what you're missing and train there once a week until you get the basics which you're needing)

so back to the main topic. i would consider other martial arts better in terms of practicality and fighting, depending on of the categories they teach and how they teach them
(karate does a lot of striking... but most of the time its in a line without a resisting opponent)

this is a very basic view and ideas of it, but what do you all think

tkd and karate have been bastardised over the years, especially ion the 70's and 80's when they became really popular. a lot of places offer 6 week training courses to become a karate black belt and teacher.

unfortunately it just doesn't work that way, and hence the reason many karate and tkd clubs out there have given the styles a really bad name.

you must also understand, that many people jhoin a martial art for what they see on the t.v., if they only see the sport tkd, then that is what they'll fall in love with and want to join.